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Dean Barnett

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 21:29:34 -0500 from Diaspora

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Paul Ferguson

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 21:37:31 -0500 from Diaspora

Right on.

Paul Ferguson

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 21:38:17 -0500 from Diaspora

#election2020

Bob Lai

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 21:39:16 -0500 from Diaspora

"You can only protect your liberties in this world by protecting the other man's freedom. You can only be free if I am free."– Clarence Darrow, American lawyer (1857-1938)

Paul Ferguson

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 21:49:01 -0500 from Diaspora

"He who is least among you all is the one who is great." Luke 9:48

Paul Ferguson

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 21:49:36 -0500 from Diaspora

And I am an atheist.

Bob Lai

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 21:51:00 -0500 from Diaspora

I was raised Catholic and am now atheist.

V. T. Eric Layton

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 21:59:44 -0500 from Diaspora

The Catholics made me an atheist.

By the way, that doesn't mean that I don't think that there are definitely some truisms in that book. It's like the monkeys at the typewriters coming up with Shakespeare given enough time. If enough monks, ascetics, scribes, and so forth scribbled on papyrus scrolls over a period of a thousand years or so, some good stuff is going to happen eventually. ;)

Doug Senko

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 22:02:03 -0500 from Diaspora

Conversely, think of the most disgusting, greedy and vile person(s) you know of and vote against their interests...

Bob Lai

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 22:03:04 -0500 from Diaspora

@V. T. Eric Layton Less about the message than it is about the practice of same.

Paul Ferguson

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 22:05:05 -0500 from Diaspora

The message is:

Take care of your fellow man. Don't annihilate one another.
Take care of your planet.

Pretty simple really.

Ted

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 22:09:28 -0500 from Diaspora

You're right @Paul Ferguson. It's really not hard to understand.

Paul Ferguson

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 22:13:16 -0500 from Diaspora

Pretty much everything else falls into place. But is seemingly unachievable as a species...

Muse

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 22:37:57 -0500 from Diaspora

BINGO! I'm about to take that tack with a workship I am running on worldbuilding. I have taught this before for computer game design, and have now convinced a conference on Universal Basic Income to have me along to teach it as a way to think about how to build a better future.

Paul Ferguson

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 22:39:51 -0500 from Diaspora

Life is pretty easy when you can break things down into bite sized pieces, generally people make good decisions that way.

Paul Ferguson

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 22:40:23 -0500 from Diaspora

Well, 'easy' is all relative, of course.

Dean Barnett

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 22:42:32 -0500 from Diaspora

@Muse UBI needs a lot more public discussion and research. Have you been following the UBI projects in Africa? Early results seem encouraging, but I haven't checked on it recently.

V. T. Eric Layton

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 22:52:55 -0500 from Diaspora

+1s @Bob Lai and @Paul Ferguson!

Muse

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 23:05:16 -0500 from Diaspora

@Dean Barnett Our glorious leader (he would hate that...heh!) for Basic Income Australia (Victoria) reports on the world of UBI every month! I also keep up online. Many tests have been done. Most have had positive results. Many have been sabotaged or misrepresented.

It seems to be a real hot-button for people. I've had people get angry at me just for suggesting the concept. "How can we get anyone to clean the toilets, if they don't have to?" People strongly believe that coercion is the only way we can get others to work. And yet Jeff Bezos has billions of dollars and still works. People who find it too new and scary often throw up that it would cause inflation and hurt the economy. Nobody is printing money; we are redistributing it. People on the left are terrified that it will heat up capitalism, because poor people will now be able to feed and clothe themselves.

I will be delivering a paper at the conference on how we can use media and the arts to help people better conceive of what UBI is and how it will improve their lives.

Bob Lai

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 23:06:00 -0500 from Diaspora

@Paul Ferguson As the saying goes, 'We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.'

To foster caring for our fellow man and the planet, it starts like everything else: small and simple. The more we indulge in that practice, the easier it becomes to expand.

Muse

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 23:07:22 -0500 from Diaspora

@Bob Lai YES!

Paul Ferguson

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 23:13:10 -0500 from Diaspora

@Bob Lai As a veteran, you know that I know that "excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit" is a standard held above all else.

Richard Healy

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 23:16:23 -0500 from Diaspora

@Muse I love to work hard. I hate all the bullshit in between.

Dean Barnett

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 23:20:02 -0500 from Diaspora

Will you share a link to your paper, please, @Muse, please?

Tessa Byrd

Mon, 13 Jan 2020 23:47:13 -0500 from Diaspora

@Muse+++

Muse

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 00:22:42 -0500 from Diaspora

@Dean Barnett The conference is still a ways off. I only just turned in my abstract. But...yes!

ahimsa@diasp.org

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 02:20:38 -0500 from Diaspora

@Muse have been working on this subject for the past year and made breakthroughs that I would like to share...where do I send an abstract to?

ahimsa@diasp.org

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 02:21:14 -0500 from Diaspora

(Breakthroughs for me XD...maybe they will help a little bit with the global breakthrough)

Muse

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 02:52:35 -0500 from Diaspora

@ahimsa@diasp.org Are you wanting to speak at the BIEN Conference in Australia? Be sure to check past papers that have been given at the Congress. You might be surprised at how much has been researched (just not reported).

Bob Lai

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 02:55:44 -0500 from Diaspora

@Paul Ferguson I got a version of it through the Jesuits, Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam, (To the Greater Glory of God) - wherein all that you do reflects upon God, so excellence is to be strived for, always.

ahimsa@diasp.org

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 04:01:25 -0500 from Diaspora

By the way, what is the opposite of this photo's statement? "Think of the most successful person you know and vote in their best interests"?

ahimsa@diasp.org

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 04:01:39 -0500 from Diaspora

@Muse Thanks!!

Paul Ferguson

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 11:20:07 -0500 from Diaspora

By the way, what is the opposite of this photo’s statement?

What the Republicans do -- they work in the interest of the rich & powerful and the corporations, not the average citizen.

ahimsa@diasp.org

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 11:43:21 -0500 from Diaspora

@Paul Ferguson can you put it in a sentence? Like in They Live (the photo is likewise a direction)...like "Think of the most powerful person and vote for them to have more power."

Jess Nut

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 11:49:42 -0500 from Diaspora

What would be the point of that?

ahimsa@diasp.org

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 12:23:55 -0500 from Diaspora

@Jess Nut Hope this explains it, if not feel free to ask again, or specific questions.

Richard Healy

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 12:24:13 -0500 from Diaspora

@Jess Nut Good question. To have a good quote from a "liberal" to mock in another online forum? To make a T-shirt and cash in on the MAGA folks?

Richard Healy

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 12:26:44 -0500 from Diaspora

@ahimsa@diasp.org Ah. die propaganda.

tomgrz

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 12:32:53 -0500 from Diaspora

I got a version of it through the Jesuits, Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam, (To the Greater Glory of God) - wherein all that you do reflects upon God, so excellence is to be strived for, always.

Put in modern terms: invest in good actions so the goodness bank account will grow.

Kenny Chaffin

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 12:38:12 -0500 from Diaspora

or grow a tree - https://www.cpr.org/2019/12/16/colorado-to-consider-one-more-post-death-option-human-body-composting/

Jess Nut

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 14:51:14 -0500 from Diaspora

@Richard Healy Yes, it screams of trying to get an out of context screen cap to try to mock or belittle people with.

Also "piece de resistance"? Take the time to Google it if you don't know how to put the ' in a foreign phrase. Then you can just copy and paste "pièce de résistance".

ahimsa@diasp.org

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 16:56:16 -0500 from Diaspora

On the one hand it's trying to express succinctly the insanity of self-interested policy making. On the other it's trying to understand other people by putting ourselves in their place. Interesting reactions...I have a lot of fun with language and like thinking about things like "opposites" which are impossible...but so easy to imagine...also I think in terms of other people to bridge divides...left-leaning people are by far the hardest to reach :D

ahimsa@diasp.org

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 16:58:20 -0500 from Diaspora

examples...but "hard to reach" is obviously a sign of intelligence...robust thoughts. Yes you are all very intelligent...I just wanted to go slumming with you.

Muse

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 17:04:51 -0500 from Diaspora

@Kenny Chaffin I have always wanted to become plant food upon passing! At one point the only option was a sea burial where I would become fish food. But at least I was going back into the cycle of life!

ahimsa@diasp.org

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 17:04:56 -0500 from Diaspora

Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam

@tomgrz That's a great one...you took the most vulnerable and opposed it with the defacto most successful and non-person. Two opposites for one word, and retaining the "vote" implicitly. Fantastic.

tomgrz

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 17:15:02 -0500 from Diaspora

Two opposites for one word - I call it "sarcasm".

tomgrz

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 17:18:17 -0500 from Diaspora

Irony also in that it's not far at all from the corrupt modern Calvinist Work Ethic.

ahimsa@diasp.org

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 17:21:05 -0500 from Diaspora

"Think of the Billionaire class and buy their products"

ahimsa@diasp.org

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 17:22:11 -0500 from Diaspora

A point was wanted, but I forgot it having too much fun with language.

Paul Ferguson

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 17:55:17 -0500 from Diaspora

A point was wanted, but I forgot it having too much fun with language.

That's called trolling. Goodbye.

Kenny Chaffin

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 18:14:36 -0500 from Diaspora

Yep!!!

ahimsa@diasp.org

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 19:06:39 -0500 from Diaspora

That’s called trolling. Goodbye.

@Paul Ferguson Really? Even after I gave my point (understanding others)...I'm not allowed to forget it so that other points can be discovered...I'm not allowed to poetically imply the point while enjoying another one? Are you a #unirationalist--do you believe in only one reason or one cause for things? Am I not allowed to layer or texture my meaning? What's called trolling? I hope you realize you are proving the importance of my point: it is the inability to incorporate foreign opinions or alternative modes of thought that leads to political fragmentation and the success of simplistic ideologies.

Image/photo

Perhaps this will change the discourse from your protectionist attitudes towards the "vulnerable", which I realize now is actually incredibly vague and actually detrimental, because it sets up a high likelihood of inequality, like voting for the poor. I am the most vulnerable person I know, especially to the machinations of myself! And I say this in the sense that whatever does not kill me can only make me stronger.

By using vulnerable in a context that implies "in need of our help" you thus implicitly support a chauvinistic, and stereotypically patriarchal, ethos and limit the capacity for discovering the important aspects of vulnerability. In fact, I have to thank you for opening my eyes on this subject...at first I supported it, but now I realize it is actually a problematic statement. I have been criticised here for lacking your social graces and French-language education...am I not the vulnerable one here. Too bad you choose not to vote with your words in friendliness...I don't feel like I offered you anything less.

And there is another "point" for why considering alternative opinions is important: it makes you realize that sometimes one admonition is as bad as any other. I did not intend to troll, and I wish I did not have to be the bearer of bad news, but the good feelings you all get by supporting this simplistic message are one side of a very complex coin. I do not want to insult you, I too was lured in by the words and message. Nor do I disagree with the sentiment or direction. The main point is that all this does is confirm a feeling that we already have, and to someone who, for example, believes in social darwinism or that the vulnerable deserve to die, our simplistic agreement will give them all the more reason to agree simplistically. So statements like this actually accomplish the opposite of their goal. This is called the backfire effect. Hopefully by now you can see that I'm actually trying to help. And, what you see as trolling, was for me a conversation filled with insights.

So actually I take back my support of this statement: vulnerability should be voted into office, not represented. Maybe consider an approach to politics that doesn't polarize so quickly, you might find more success. One word that helps me is antifragile, another is patience. Goodbye to you!

ahimsa@diasp.org

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 19:15:41 -0500 from Diaspora

That’s called trolling. Goodbye.

@Paul Ferguson Really? Even after I gave my point (understanding others)…I’m not allowed to forget it so that other points can be discovered…I’m not allowed to poetically imply the point while enjoying another one? Are you a #unirationalist , do you believe in only one reason or one cause for things? Am I not allowed to layer or texture my meaning? What’s called trolling? I hope you realize you are proving the importance of my point: it is the inability to incorporate foreign opinions or alternative modes of thought that leads to political fragmentation and the success of simplistic ideologies.

Image/photo

Perhaps this will change the discourse from your protectionist attitudes towards the “vulnerable”, which I realize now is actually incredibly vague and actually detrimental, because it sets up a high likelihood of inequality, like voting for the poor.

By using vulnerable in a context that implies “in need of our help” you thus implicitly support a chauvinistic, and stereotypically patriarchal, ethos and limit the capacity for discovering the important aspects of vulnerability. In fact, I have to thank you for opening my eyes on this subject…at first I supported it, but now I realize it is actually a problematic statement. I have been criticised here for lacking your social graces and French-language education…am I not the vulnerable one here. Too bad you choose not to vote with your words in friendliness…I don’t feel like I offered you anything less.

And there is another “point” for why considering alternative opinions is important: it makes you realize that sometimes one admonition is as bad as any other. I did not intend to troll, and I wish I did not have to be the bearer of bad news, but the good feelings you all get by supporting this simplistic message are one side of a very complex coin. I do not want to insult you, I too was lured in by the words and message. Nor do I disagree with the sentiment or direction. The main point is that all this does is confirm a feeling that we already have, and to someone who, for example, believes in social darwinism or that the vulnerable deserve to die, our simplistic agreement will give them all the more reason to agree simplistically with some version of their opposites. This is a vicious cycle, and we have to rise above it if we truly care about the referents of words like vulnerability. So statements like this actually accomplish the opposite of their goal. This is called the backfire effect. Hopefully by now you can see that I’m actually trying to help. And, what you see as trolling, was for me a conversation filled with insights. Thank you all, especially those who were kind!

So actually I take back my support of this statement: vulnerability should be voted into office, not represented. Maybe consider an approach to politics that doesn’t polarize so quickly, you might find more success. One word that helps me is antifragile, another is patience. Goodbye to you too!

ahimsa@diasp.org

Tue, 14 Jan 2020 19:42:40 -0500 from Diaspora

How about this: "Think of your favourite species and vote in the person most likely to turn the xlock of their ecosystem!" Or if you want more anthropocentric "Think of your favourite green architect and vote in the best interests of the homeless." I'm not going for 10 reshares here, but trying to address complex ideas that are much more relevant and effective at fulfilling the best interests of people than voting for them based on some abstract word like vulnerability. Sorry it's not punchy like the sign from your bald bearded glasses-wearing serious figure, and I must admit I really like the idea of thinking about someone and voting in their interests--wow, instantly appeals to the ethical value of altruism, we want more of that, right?...but voting with altruism will neither encourage it, nor provide the means to provide for it...so sorry to say this, but this argument has a flaw: voting in the best interests of someone never guarantees that those interests will be met, and based on my last comment I hope you also see that arguing to vote in someone else's best interests is likely to encourage people to vote otherwise--i.e. for themselves, a much more likely outcome. A vote for the vulnerable is vulnerable to failure.

Jess Nut

Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:17:38 -0500 from Diaspora

@ahimsa@diasp.org Admitting the people are less well off than you and wanting to help them is not chauvinistic or oppressive. Forcing your help on other people so you can feel good about yourself is.

For example: - Donating money to charities or causes that help the homeless get into hosing and back on their feet = good. - Posting selfies or videos of yourself throwing money at the homeless and them scrambling on the ground to collect it for internet "clout" = oppressive https://newsone.com/playlist/blueface-cash-homeless-video-twitter-reacts/

Forcing your help on people who have said they don't want it, or even after people have said it's not needed is chauvinistic. Making services available for people who want to use them is not.

This idea is to think, inside your head, of the most vulnerable person you know; the teacher living paycheck to paycheck and having to buy school supplies out of their own pocket, the single mother who skips meals so her kid can have clothes to wear to school, the immigrant who gets nasty messages left in their mailbox or spray painted on their door, etc. and to vote in a way that you think we help them the most, even if it means that you (who has a lot) might get a little less. It's not labeling anyone because it's in your head, a thought exercise. It's not forcing your will on anyone because you aren't voting for anything to happen to them specifically, just in general (and if voting is forcing your will on other people, it is no matter what your moral values are). It may not even be about a real person you know, but instead a concept based on stories you've heard about people through the news or word of mouth.

The fact that you think voting in other people's best interest is somehow bad for those other people because it also makes people feel good for doing something nice... is mentally deranged. You are either trolling, ignorant, or psychopathic.

Paul Ferguson

Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:25:49 -0500 from Diaspora

The fact that you think voting in other people’s best interest is somehow bad for those other people because it also makes people feel good for doing something nice… is mentally deranged. You are either trolling, ignorant, or psychopathic.

Hear, hear.

tomgrz

Wed, 15 Jan 2020 20:27:15 -0500 from Diaspora

Wow - too much text for my poor brain...

Richard Healy

Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:31:37 -0500 from Diaspora

@tomgrz Meh. Don't worry about it. The words in the OP's picture are the takeaway.